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TOPIC: Modulators on list at Preset/Instrument disappears

Modulators on list at Preset/Instrument disappears 6 years 7 months ago #1

  • Gervill
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Hello!

First of all thank you very much for your time and effort you've put in Polyphone — it's very good piece of software.

Recently I've been playing with modulators and I found one misbehavior, what gave me some deeper thinking about possible problems, but let's start with things, that are actually visible.

When one adds modulator to the selected instrument which is placed in preset (and I mean I have opened Presets section, then opened some preset node, like 000:000, and then I see instrument(s) node(s) assigned to it — and here I pick concrete instrument), then on modulators list shows up nothing. When I click + icon to add new modulator, then (if any modulator was previously assigned to this instrument) these modulators reappear and I can edit the new one just added (or remove it). I believe these modulators should be visible at once, without pressing + icon. That's the bug I've noticed in the first place.

But there are some things that (perhaps) might be involved in modulators.

I am not an expert about SF2 file format, but my imagination is, that when I add modulator(s) to an instrument in Instruments section, then all its modulators should "follow" it when the instrument is assigned to a preset. But currently, when I assign instrument (with some modulators) to the preset, then they (modulators) are gone and I can add new modulators to each (assigned) instrument in preset independently of instrument definition (looking from Instruments section perspective). This, however might be actually a feature, but what is then the reason to add modulators to instrument in Instruments section, when it can not be reached from synthesizer and instrument's modulators are not "seen" form Presets/preset/instrument perspective? This, potentially, might be some another bug. Nevertheless, I still consider Polyphony a great piece of software. In case you need more explanations or screenshots, then just let me know. And this is version 1.8 of Polyphony.
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Modulators on list at Preset/Instrument disappears 6 years 7 months ago #2

  • ziyametedemircan
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Modulators can be created in the following areas:
1. global instrument region.
2. local instrument region (for each sample)
3. global preset region
4. local preset zone (for each group)

For this reason: to see the modulator, you first have to click on the region where the modulator is created.

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The modulators formed in each region are evaluated separately according to their similarity.
eg if the Modulators are similar to each other: sum. operations is applied; If the modulators are not similar to each other, the addition process is applied. (<--This is just an example. Different situations can lead to different results.)
You can create a modulator in both the instrument (global and local) and the preset (global and local) levels.
and each is visible to the SoundFont processor.

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Test the modulators you added, outside of the Polyphone.
The synthesizer in the polyphone is a simplified copy. (to preview the samples)
This synthesizer has no (or limited to) the ability to play modulators you add.

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Note: I am a user like you :)
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Modulators on list at Preset/Instrument disappears 6 years 7 months ago #3

  • Gervill
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Thank you for your insights, seems like I missed the organization of modulators. It was really eye-opening.

I don't, however get the difference between sum and addition (I thought it's the same) basing on similarity of modulators. Can you, please, elaborate on this a little? And can you, please, confirm, that modulators assigned to the different instruments (both assigned to a single preset) act on them separately, before output of each instrument's samples + modulators are mixed together to produce final sound?

Maybe it would be easier, when I describe, what I try to achieve: I need a preset made up of two instruments. Each instrument has its own samples (they are not shared between instruments). I'd like to have preset which acts like this: both instruments are played together (one is much, much quieter than other), but when I press hold pedal (064 controller) I want the "main" instrument to "go quiet" and the other one's volume to increase, so it's like I can, in a way, switch between to instruments, but more like to mix them and make one of them sound much louder than the other and fluently change it. Currently I placed, as a primary source, hold pedal (CC-064) with unipolar on/off normalization (0-63 -> 0, 64-127 -> 1) and as secondary source note-on velocity times -1500 and as destination Volume envelope: attenuation with absolute value checked. The initial attenuation of the instrument is quiet high, so one can barely hear it. When MIDI sends 064 event and it's level reaches value above 63, then primary source generates value of 1, which enables the rest of calculations (previously it was 0, so it all computed to 0), so key velocity is multiplied by minus 1500, so let's say, for key velocity of 64 it reaches the value of -96000 and since it's marked as absolute value, it modifies the attenuation of volume envelope and since it's negative, it actually makes it much louder (perhaps value of 1500 is a overkill, but it's all test as for now). Unfortunately the change in volume (well, the envelope actually) is very sudden, so when MIDI sequence contains events of: 1) pressing key and then, after few ms, 2) pressing down the hold pedal, then it gives unpleasant "pop". What I would really like is to gradually decrease the volume of one instrument (over configurable time frame) and gradually increase the volume of the other instrument — so to perform fade-out on first, fade-in on second and finally mix them to have sum of their volume envelopes at the same level (I really hope, you get, what I just wrote). So, to say it even shorter, to smoothly change between two instruments using pedal as the "switch" controller. Thus far I failed to do so — have any clues?

I am aware, that Polyphony's synthesizer does not support modifiers, fortunately Gervill synthesizer (from Java Sound API) does support it (and definitely one can hear the difference, e.g. LFO volume of LFO vibrate modulators produce distinguishable results) and I am testing SF2 file with it — in case one would like to know.

And, as this is actually the bug section and not to be totally off-topic, I think that still there is a little bug concerning the display, even if we take into account what you said previously (which triggered great "oh!"): if one clicks on Presets/preset-node/instrument, then in the "table" area the column with the selected instrument changes title style to bold (so it acts as selected column) — so the column (instrument) is in fact selected, but modulators are not visible. When I click on the column's title then indeed modulators appear, but it is still the same selected instrument. And clicking on preset node activates the Global column. So, after all, I personally think, that clicking on instrument or preset node should actually trigger the display of modulators, as it is clear, what we are referring to.

Thank you for you time and have nice day/evening. :)
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Modulators on list at Preset/Instrument disappears 6 years 7 months ago #4

  • ziyametedemircan
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The following CC#'s may not be used as sources for the Modulators: (Because they are MIDI commands, that have their own specific tasks): 0, 6, 32, 38, 64, 66, 67, 98, 99, 100, 101, 120, 121, 123.
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Yes, I might be a little confused. (about "Additive and Summed")
The general nature of the modulators is additive.
Something changes in the calculation method (depending on the source). And I don't know how to express this.

I would say:
Identtical: d = modulatorA+ModulatorB; //<- same source, same destination ( it behaves like a single modulator).
Non identical: d= ModulatorA + (Mod.B= t(s1*a*aS)) + (Mod.C=t(s2*a*aS)) +(Mod.D=t(s3*a*aS))+ ... //<--different sources, same destination.
d:destination, t: transform, s:source, a: amount, aS: amount Source

I've made it even more complicated. Never mind. :D
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The "General" part of the table area dominates the whole table. These modulators are visible when you click on a field in the General column.
In local areas: each column can have its own modulator. Modulators in this area are visible when you click on a field in the local column.
It didn't look like a bug to me. But this may change from a point of view.

Yes, it isn't possible to see them all together.
If so: We couldn't understand which modulator is related to the general part and which one is related to local parts.
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by ziyametedemircan.
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